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How do I bi-amp componets?


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sedate 
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Location: Colorado, United States
Posted: June 01, 2005 at 10:13 PM / IP Logged  

Heh guys:

So I've noticed audiophiles always talk about bi-amping componets...  This means discretly running each componet from a seperate channel of the amp w/o a crossover?

What are some of the advantages of doing it this way instead of through a crossover?  Right now i'm running a JL Audio e6450... a 6 channel amp (45x6, 90x6, 150x3) and I have the front 4-channels bridged to a pair of CDT Audio componets...  150-watts to each side.  How would I go about discretely amping each componet? Typically, what is used to filter output? How would I go about bi-amping a pair of midbasses and a pair of tweeters from this amp?  Would it even be desirable?

"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
haemphyst 
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Posted: June 01, 2005 at 10:29 PM / IP Logged  
OK... You asked for it. LOL This is a whole can o' worms... There are people like myself who like bi-amping and people like DYohn who like passives. Neither is right or wrong. It is a taste issue.
TRUE bi-amping will require additional active crossovers to do it correctly. Firstly, you need to know where the crossover is set from your manufacturer, both frequency and slope. I would use this as a starting point when looking for a crossover point. It will by NO means be the end-all, be-all for you final resting point, and you will really want to have a good RTA and mic setup - that or an ear that REALLY KNOWS what the setup should sound like.
Some of the advantages:
1-Headroom
2-No frequency drift - ever
3-Damping improves
4-Flexibility
There are more, but these are the primary ones.
Some of the disadvantages:
1-Can be difficult to implement CORRECTLY
2-Expense of additional amp channels
3-Expense of additional crossovers
4-Expense of additional wire
Again, there are more, but you get the jist of it...
I can go on further, and if you would like, ask with specific questions. It is too extensive a subject matter to try to answer everything in broad strokes.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Poormanq45 
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Joined: October 27, 2004
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Posted: June 01, 2005 at 10:57 PM / IP Logged  
Note that you can reduce the required amplifier power by ~%15~20% when switching from a passive to active crossover system. Passive crossovers take up quite a bit of power.
Also, you can COMPLETELY control ALL parameters of EACH driver using an active setup. Now, you can do this with passive crossovers, but it requires MUCH more work.
sedate 
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Posted: June 01, 2005 at 11:30 PM / IP Logged  

Ah hamfist....  asking *moi* for specific questions?

1-Headroom - Here you refer to absolute SPL?

2-No frequency drift - What is frequency drift?
3-Damping improves - Damping?  Signal/Noise?  huh?

"additional active crossovers" - okay, my understanding of an 'active' crossover is one, in the signal path, that provides output.. say, the xover on the amp or the xover on the HU.  a 'passive' crossover is one that sits in the signal path and just cuts off something.. an external crossover or a bass-blocker or whatever. 

So in this case "additional active crossovers" is a signal processor?  My interest in this goes exactly as far as I need to move the crossovers in my car due to a horrible installation accident that I really don't wanna discuss here.... I'd really rather ditch them completely..  and I have this 6-channel amp..  soo. 

Yea my most specific question goes like this:  I wanna try bi-amping a set of JL Audio VR series midbasses with a set of CDT Audio 1" silk dome tweeters from the first 4 channels of a JL Audio e6450 b/c I think it would be really fun to do it.    So tell me everything you possibly can about that.

http://www.jlaudio.com/amps/e6450.html

"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 02, 2005 at 12:12 AM / IP Logged  
sedate wrote:
Ah hamfist.... asking *moi* for specific questions?

1-Headroom - Here you refer to absolute SPL?

2-No frequency drift - What is frequency drift?
3-Damping improves - Damping? Signal/Noise? huh?

Headroom is the difference in power required between the quietest passages and the loudest passages. The more headroom you have, the better your amplifier can handle the transients necessary to make your music more "lifelike". Without one 300WPC amplifier having to do a (relatively) HUGE portion of the spectrum, say 80 to 20K, you could use two somewhat smaller amps and split that wide range into smaller bands, for example 120 watts dedicated to 80 to 3500, and 45 watts dedicated to 3500 to 20K. Also, passive crossovers tend to smear transient response. i.e. "round-off" the sharp peaks required. You know, the stuff required to make a snare drum sound like a snare drum. Without requiring VERY high quality passive components in the crossover, you can use an active crossover instead. The op-amps in pretty much ANY active device will be faster than even the best quality passive components. I almost forgot... Yes absolute (peak, or transient) SPL is what headroom will affect directly. Average SPL *MIGHT* be better as well, but overall, the average is really determined by the capacity of your drivers. Frequency drift is what happens when your caps and coils change values (although it is a SLIGHT change) due to age and/or temperature. Damping is the back EMF from the voice coils being shorted against itself inside the amplifiers output devices. It improves because there is significantly less wire between the voice coil and the output terminals of the amplifier. Signal to noise is simply the sssssssssss you hear in the background between songs, or in quiet passages. The higher the S/N ratio, the less sssssssssss you hear.
sedate wrote:
"additional active crossovers" - okay, my understanding of an 'active' crossover is one, in the signal path, that provides output.. say, the xover on the amp or the xover on the HU. a 'passive' crossover is one that sits in the signal path and just cuts off something.. an external crossover or a bass-blocker or whatever.
They really both do the same thing, just in different physical places in the signal chain. Active is placed between the source (your HU or EQ) and the destination (the amp). It is actually considered a gain stage, and this is why it is so important to choose VERY carefully your active devices. A passive crossover, can be as simple as a capacitor in a tweeter lead, or a coil (inductor) in a woofer lead. A single device such as a cap or coil, will provide a 6dB slope, and you add more caps or coils in any combination of series and/or parallel, to increase the slope (or the order - each order adds 6dB. 1st-6dB, 2nd-12dB, 3rd-18dB and so on). When you get to higher order crossovers, especially low pass crossovers, the amount of wire in the inductors can be significant, thus reducing the amount of power available for your speaker system. The additional resistance also reduces the damping factor of the system.
sedate wrote:
So in this case "additional active crossovers" is a signal processor? My interest in this goes exactly as far as I need to move the crossovers in my car due to a horrible installation accident that I really don't wanna discuss here.... I'd really rather ditch them completely.. and I have this 6-channel amp.. soo.
The amp, I see, can be run as a 4 channel? Is this correct? 2X45 and 2X150? PERFECT! I have no idea how flexible the crossovers are inside the amp, but if you can set it to HP at 3500 or so (for the tweeters @ 45wpc), and LP at 3500 or so (for the mid-bass @ 150wpc), you'd be set. IF not, you need an external crossover - something like the Audio Control 6XS (adjusted by chips or resistors, and semi-fixed) or the Altomobile UCSPro (digital and INFINITELY flexible and adjustable). This will put you into a bit of an overpowered situation, so you would of course, need to be exceptionally careful in your use of the volume control...
sedate wrote:
Yea my most specific question goes like this: I wanna try bi-amping a set of JL Audio VR series midbasses with a set of CDT Audio 1" silk dome tweeters from the first 4 channels of a JL Audio e6450 b/c I think it would be really fun to do it. So tell me everything you possibly can about that.
http://www.jlaudio.com/amps/e6450.html
This amp won't do it in native mode. You'll simply HAVE to buy another croosver - an outboard one will be necessary.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Steven Kephart 
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Posted: June 02, 2005 at 2:53 AM / IP Logged  

I want to add what I believe are the largest positives and negatives to this endeavor.

Positive:  If pulled off, an incredible sounding system that is much better than the passive crossovers.  They will now be tuned to your vehicle and your personal tastes.

Negative:  It is extremely difficult to pull off without expensive test equipment, a good ear, and some pretty extensive knowledge.

Sedate; from what I've seen of you I believe you could pull it iff.  You seem to be very bright, and have the drive to pursue this to it's end.  Plus with people like Haemphyst helping you, I think the odds are greatly in your favor.  I will try to help you if I can as well.

What I recommend is that you pick up a good processor with a parametric EQ and crossover.  You will want something that will offer quite a bit of flexibility so you don't have to "settle".

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 02, 2005 at 8:30 AM / IP Logged  
First, Thanks for the vote, Steven!
Second, I have to echo Steven's input there, regarding the flexibility aspect... It will be helpful to have it! My personal recommendation would be the UCSPro from Alto. It is an EXPENSIVE piece, I think around $600 or so (maybe more... I don't know), but the digital aspect of it is an amazing help for systems just such as yours. It will provide you with Crossover Capabilities up to 48dB, Noise Gates, 31 bands of TRUE Parametric Equalization, Time Delay (alignment), and Dynamic Compression and Limiting. A true set it and forget it piece of equipment. I have TWO (2) of them! One for the highs, and one dedicated to my subwoofer. It's ONLY drawback, (but a blessing as well - 'cause people cant futz with your settings once you set it all up) is that it REQUIRES a PC to set it...
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
sedate 
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Location: Colorado, United States
Posted: June 03, 2005 at 12:55 AM / IP Logged  

"sedate; from what I've seen of you I believe you could pull it iff.  You seem to be very bright, and have the drive to pursue this to it's end."

<---  pulls at collar sheepishly>  Yea really Steven thanks for the vote! How do I bi-amp componets? -- posted image.

"It is extremely difficult to pull off without expensive test equipment, a good ear, and some pretty extensive knowledge."

Now this may be naive brash talking, but (and just maybe u and hamfist can relate), after reading what u and hamfist say... it sounds like this is the way to get my front end sounding the way *I* want.  I'm always screwing off with the top end cuz *every* comp set I buy sounds screechy to me outta the box.  I dunno why.  Once I eq-out that high-end, then I get into the nitty-gritty like midbass-response, detail... etc., etc.

Once again I find myself cursing my decision to pick up the cheapo, high-current JL stuff instead of the orgasmic "Slash" series... =/    

Yea no kidding hamfist that signal processor is a beast.. but .. uhh... dude... I wait tables.  (I kid you not I say things like "That comes with a side salad or side pasta, what would you like tonight?") My girlfriend just kicked me out, and I just paid tution and books for the summer semester, and hence I now owe Capital One *even more* money.  That thing simply can't happen right now.   Sometimes I work 3 weeks for that kinda cheese. 

Of course, never to be deterred, what would u guys look at in say.. the $100 - $300 range?  That I might be able to cough up here in the next few weeks.. (one thing I truly love about this country... no matter how sticky the freedom/security situation can ever get.. obtaining *stuff* will only ever require a signature and a smile... money isn't even real anymore... How do I bi-amp componets? -- posted image.)  I get the impression to do this properly would require active crossing.. anything I add after the amp would be a static cross and from what Steven said to do this properly would *require* active adjustability... and I've been looking for an excuse to get an proper eq..  

So whatchu guys think?  I can't dump that kinda cash on a bonkers signal processor right now so I ought stick with passive xovers and wait for a brighter day?  Or can u guys recommend something a wee bit more not <more than my rent> and then we can take a stab at this?  What ever you recommend it will be installed in my trunk, so looks/c**kpit adjustablility is not the deciding factor here...  functionality and *price* is.  Of course, anything that would be movable to a nice 2xDIN opening in a new car that might complement.. say.. an Alpine CDA-9833 would of course be... welcome.

Cheers guys thanks for the help. 

"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
haemphyst 
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Posted: June 03, 2005 at 8:39 AM / IP Logged  
I might have something for you...
Just to let you know, I am not forgetting or ignoring you... I'll reply from work where I have a little more time! How do I bi-amp componets? -- posted image.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 03, 2005 at 5:03 PM / IP Logged  
sedate, I found the item I was looking for, for you... It is an AudioControl EQX. On the bottom right of the page, there is a link to the owner's manual, and this is an older generation (GenII, I think, pretty much just a different paint job), but identical in specs to the new stuff. All of the crossovers work, and there are no noisy pots... It's an old school version, but it is in EXCELLENT shape, and I would be willing to let it go for a "starving actor type" such as yourself for a good price, probably within the first half of that range you stated above. Let me know if you are interested. I'll send you some pics if you'd like...
It's certainly not a "bonkers" unit, but a nice piece, nonetheless. I just don't need it anymore, because I have my UCS units, and they do PLENTY! It is a shame to see a nice piece like this just sitting in the garage, potentially rotting away...
Really, man, sorry to hear about your GF kicking you out... women... What would we do without them? OK, don't think about it! How do I bi-amp componets? -- posted image.
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
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