damage a relay by crossing meter leads?

(Howie) Ah - here we called the Isuzu Piazza the Holden Pizza, though some just called it a Lemon! (Yes, it's in a "Lemon" book!) That was after GMH (GM-Holden) modified the Piazza's handling - maybe they were contracted by GM to also sabotage Isuzu! Holden not only bought the superseded Piazza body, but the forgot to cancel their second order which lead to one of the biggest "giveaways" of all time - one Piazza to EVERY GHM dealer throughout Australia, and lots donated to quiz shows. Maybe it was called the Impulse in USA because of Isuzu's impulse... And yes, 31b is defined as "Return line to negative battery terminal or ground, via switch or relay (switched negative)", but in my Mitchell book it is shown as going to "To IGN coil-", hence I assume the "module" in the KAE 3.300.210 is a pulse to gnd circuit. But that cannot be used for the SPST bypass, though a simple jumper from 30 to 87 is all that is needed there noting that it must be manually disconnected when the IGN is off. If an SPST relay is used, the #15 (to relay coil 86) is IGN switched +12V so the relay (hence fuel pump) is off when IGN is off. (Only the "off when stalled" is missing.) Earth and Ground. LOL! I used to dislike ground, but I now almost prefer it because it is easy to write as GND. However both IMO are incorrect because neither are "safety" earth or ground as used in AC systems. I do prefer 0V which is technically correct, but that can be confusing to some, hence my 2nd preference of Chassis (meaning body/chassis etc).    Flat Earth thinking... LOL - that's another misconception I often (try to) correct. That stemmed from political propaganda some centuries ago where a minority of religions (about 20 out of ~125 as I recall) reckoned the Earth was flat. That was despite 2,000 years ago calculations that put the Earth's circumference to within ~2% of the correct figure. But yes, media will sensationalise bullsh false & minority thinking as if it were the norm. How else could they sell unhealthy and useless products, or sell certain political doctrines. But I shall leave that topic there. I'd hate to ripple the pond. (Not!) But vayankee has IMO shown his astuteness - with VW electrics as well (LOL). Stick with the designated relay. But if that becomes difficult, you know that there is/are relatively simple substitutes that meet Regulations etc (ie, the fuel pump shallst NOT pump after the engine has stalled). I agree, stimulating discussion. And no-one has commented on the use of oil-pressure to control fuel pumps. Obviously the Aussie dimwits I had the pleasure of encountering have now understood their stupidity, else aren't on the12volt. Probably the latter I suspect!

I seem to remember that our Pizza couldn't get round corners either, the interior was nasty and the Celicas murdered it. Citroens here are known as Lemons (Citron), but then French cars are CRaP (Citroen Renault and Peugeot). Vayankee, the reason you don't see a lot of these vehicles are that they are rubbish! Could you imagine Americans putting up with the electrical/build quality problems of French/Italian cars? Even in the UK they don't dare sell Lancias. Why do you think you only see (in no real order of preference), Focus, Golf/Jetta, Fiesta, BMW. Don't worry about not seeing Holdens, mostly they are UK Vauxhalls with US V8 engines. The hot one was sold here as a Vauxhall and in the US as a Pontiac GTO. Also we have lots of Chimeras, e.g. Skodas, beautifully built VWs with unfortunately awful quality cheapo SEAT interiors. Ref Chimeras, Voyagers,Jeeps, made in Austria, a front wheel drive 5 series, the Rover 75, the Honda CRV and LandRover Freelander, Ranger Rover and X5 were two parallel designs that parted company when first Honda then BMW parted company with Rover, even now working on different Land/Range Rovers it's amazing how many BMW and Volvo (the Ford ownership) parts you come across. Roughly:- Fiat 500 = Ford Ka Ford Focus = Mazda 3 = Volvo 50 series = Land Rover Freelander Ford Mondeo = Mazda 6 = Ford Edge Vauxhall/Opel Insignia = Buick Regal etc. etc. etc. Ref: Gound/Earth, chassis has French connotations, also who remembers chassis apart from truck and Land Rover Defender owners. How about battery 0v?

Well, I guess I am one of those who notice a pretty face/body first and tend to stick with that opinion until proven otherwise. But now, after your expose of certain makes, I will refrain from trying to import a Holden. Maybe I have been influenced by the great Down Under racers, Denny Hulme, etc. who impressed the he** out of me many years ago.

I did enjoy test driving a Peugeot 503 gas model, though I admit it was because of the ride and the seats and the style. Then of course they disappeared from here. Though there is one a couple miles away, with a turbo on it no less.

And yes, I only see "chassis" in occasional car mag. columns by old timers. But "chassis" does have a nice continental ring about it. (Pardon my French heritage).

Alas Holden tend to export engines. Their V6 is based on some Buick though... My vehicle has a chassis! (And doesn't a monocoque body arguably have a chassis? - not that I'm up with or into automotive parlance - I just drive, repair and upgrade the beasts...) And what instead of 0V? A 12V battery has -12V? No! (It has +12V and 0V - unless you'd prefer +6V & -6V with a -6V ground?) But I do remember my "objection" when +ve & -ve supplies became +ve & 0V supplies on circuit diagrams etc. But I eventually saw the light...

Modern Peugeots:- 508 comes to me a few months ago, 4 year old diesel. No sound from the audio, all OEM(Clarion)equipment. I had a spare amp and tried that, no difference, it turns out there's an "integrator" (preamp?) behind the glove box cost £1200 ($1800). Forget it. Also particle filter blocked, £1,500 plus locks not working on one door. They throw them away after 3-5 years here, just too expensive to repair. Don't get me wrong the 503/4/5 were fabulous vehicles, after that they tried too hard to copy the Germans, loaded with flash, unnecessary electronics, unfortunately only BMWs seem to work properly. Stopped by a customer's car 2 year old Citroen, "why are you opening the door to speak to me?" "Drivers window failed again". They're a bloody joke.

0v return? Not physically correct unless quantum theory has changed but effectively so.

howie ll wrote: Modern Peugeots:- 508 comes to me a few months ago, 4 year old diesel. No sound from the audio, all OEM(Clarion)equipment. I had a spare amp and tried that, no difference, it turns out there's an "integrator" (preamp?) behind the glove box cost £1200 ($1800). Forget it. Also particle filter blocked, £1,500 plus locks not working on one door. They throw them away after 3-5 years here, just too expensive to repair. Don't get me wrong the 503/4/5 were fabulous vehicles, after that they tried too hard to copy the Germans, loaded with flash, unnecessary electronics, unfortunately only BMWs seem to work properly. Stopped by a customer's car 2 year old Citroen, "why are you opening the door to speak to me?" "Drivers window failed again". They're a bloody joke.

That's a shame. All the more reason, to me, to find something good and hold onto it, with occassional diversions like fuel pump relays :)

Speaking of relays, I have another relay question. Having to do with a/c fans. Should I start a new thread?

Yes.

howie ll wrote: 0v return? Not physically correct unless quantum theory has changed but effectively so.

Pardon? Compared to +12V, 0V is correct. (Quantum offsets cancel.) So Sir Howie, if the +ve terminal of a nominal 12V battery is called or assigned +12V, what (voltage) should its -ve terminal be assigned/called? Pre-emptive: I hope I "win" this... No - I hope I "don't lose" and learn something in the process. (But if I learn I don't care if I lose because I will have won... Dear Admin - please delete this paragraph - I'd rather lose than post this embarrassment!.) {Need I add a LOL or emoticon??} PS - sorry - I deleted by mistake. I was going to add the Devilish emoticon after my "Sir Howie" line....

You've bloody lost me! The quick answer is -12v but then we don't have 24 volt batteries!!!! Battery NEG anyone?