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How do I bi-amp componets?


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haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 05, 2005 at 1:04 AM / IP Logged  
You there sedate?
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
sedate 
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Location: Colorado, United States
Posted: June 05, 2005 at 4:47 PM / IP Logged  

Yea.

Sorry.  Kinda had a long weekend.

I had to look at that thing for a minute to figure it out.  whew.

haemphyst wrote:
sedate, I found the item I was looking for, for you... It is an AudioControl EQX. On the bottom right of the page, there is a link to the owner's manual, and this is an older generation (GenII, I think, pretty much just a different paint job), but identical in specs to the new stuff. All of the crossovers work, and there are no noisy pots... It's an old school version, but it is in EXCELLENT shape, and I would be willing to let it go for a "starving actor type" such as yourself for a good price, probably within the first half of that range you stated above. Let me know if you are interested. I'll send you some pics if you'd like...

What is a noisy pot? 

"Starving actor type?"  Hehe alright I appreciate that.  But I have questions..!

haemphyst wrote:
It's certainly not a "bonkers" unit, but a nice piece, nonetheless. I just don't need it anymore, because I have my UCS units, and they do PLENTY! It is a shame to see a nice piece like this just sitting in the garage, potentially rotting away...

Yea I'll agree with not letting it rot..  Okay here is what it looks like to me though.. Follow along and tell me if this is all correct.. this is how my system plan is forming in my head:

Front RCA output --> Signal Processor --> First 2 sets of RCA inputs on JL 6450 -->First 4 channels to Tweeters/Midbass

Rear RCA output --> Rear RCA input on JL 6450 --> Rear Fill

Now here is the sticky wicket:  The EQX has a set crossover point..  at 90hz no less.. which for what we're discussing makes it fairly useless... except u can change it out it with a resistor?  Like they give a formula and say that u can swap it out for a different one and change the xover point as needed?  Have you changed urs?  My sense of this would say that being able to adjust the xover point for proper tuning would be *very* important... so hows that work? It looks pretty simple in the .pdf but how expensive/obtainable are resistors for this thing?  Or is this another one of those "radio shack" moments?  What about this "Programmable Frequency Module"-subsonic filter thing..  that works the same way? Just do the math to get the resistor value and plug it in?  Tell me all about that.

haemphyst wrote:
Really, man, sorry to hear about your GF kicking you out... women... What would we do without them? OK, don't think about it! How do I bi-amp componets? - Page 2 -- posted image.

Yea.  Huh.  Its okay.  She hated my stereo anyway.

"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 05, 2005 at 11:10 PM / IP Logged  
Number one: No offense intended by the starving actor thing, K?
Number two: A "noisy pot" would be like a scratchy volume control... you know, when you go to turn up the volume on your stereo, and you get the scratch, then when you release the knob, most always it'll go back to clean sound... that's all I was sayin'...
Number three: Unless you REALLY want rear fill, I'd forget the rear fill, bridge the amp to 4 channels, and run all four to the front stage. I think you'll be plenty happy with the way it sounds. The PFM is really just a high-pass crossover point, in the one I have, it happens to be set for 30Hz. I don't have the math for figuring the resistor values for that plug-in, (it will be different than the XO module) but I should be able to get it fairly easily from Audio Control - that, or actually order the modules for the HP crossover point you want - I bet they can't be more than a few bucks each...
Number four: The EQX is (pretty much) completely adjustable. It's flexibility will ONLY be determined by the availability of 5% resistors in your area. Radio Shack has a few in store, but MANY more are available online, and through any decent electronics PARTS store. They wouldn't EVER cost more than about 50 cents each, (closer to the 10 cent area) and the 14 pin sockets (for the PFM) and the 16 pin sockets (for the XO Module)?? I've never seen them for more than two dollars each anywhere...
In fact here's a place you can get SOME values already assembled - you need type C. Also, here is a place to get the actual sockets, ready for you to put the actual resistors of choice in place... You need one 14 pin, (the PFM) and one 16 pin (the XO mod). My 16 pin, BTW has gone missing, so you WILL need one. If you let me know the crossover value right now in your passives, I will build a network for that XO point and have it plugged in for you, if you decide you want this thing...
How do I bi-amp componets? - Page 2 -- posted image.
I need to go - the wife has to take an online test for her work right now, but there's some info to chew on for a bit. Any more questions, just ask.
Number five: and if she really hated your stereo THAT much, you didn't need her anyway... (JK... only a jab, man)
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
sedate 
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Joined: July 03, 2004
Location: Colorado, United States
Posted: June 05, 2005 at 11:54 PM / IP Logged  

Yea I want it.

Naww I knew you didn't mean nothin, I wouldn't a whined about $$$ if I cared anyway. How do I bi-amp componets? - Page 2 -- posted image.  I work like 30 hours a week serving tables... 'starving actor type' is pretty accurate.  I like 'starving student' more though... just cuz theatre-freaks kinda annoy me.

Huh I've never heard of a volume knob that does that.

Hmm... okay how does this resistor thing work?  I have to get the resistor and plug it into some other sort of componet (those 14 or 16 pin sockets on the second link?) which hooks onto the EQX?

Is this math just the formula in the .pdf?  7200/<desired xo point in hz> = resistor value in kohms?

So this is kinda easy.. just get the little socket, get the resistor, plug it in, and then plug the socket onto the EQX and change the XO point.....? same for the PFM but that I'd kinda set and forget?

So I've never bought something from someone over a forum like this.  How's sis supposed to work?  

"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 06, 2005 at 12:33 AM / IP Logged  
1: OK
2: Alrightie, then. Student it is... LOL (Sure hope I don't know any "theater-freaks". BWAHAHAH!!)
3: Old school volume knobs used to do it... today's digital stuff does not.
4: Actually, you'll solder the resistors (8 for the XO, and 7 for the PFM) to the header... smallish parts, but pretty easy to do. The compnents are not temerature sensitive... Here's a schematic of what they'll look like, electrically, anyway... (and pretty close, physically, too) The header will make it easy to change frequency points "at will" as it were... unplug one, plug in a different one. Done
How do I bi-amp componets? - Page 2 -- posted image.
This is just a quick diagram for the 16 pin version, the 14 pin is identical, save two leads and one resistor.
5: Yes, that's the math for the XO mod, but the math will be different for the PFM, but I'll call (e-mail, actually) tech support for AudioControl, and get that math for you... It'll be pretty simple as well.
6: Yep, that's it... easy peasy. 8 resistors in a convenient little carrier, plug it in, both the PFM and the XO mod, and forget it.
7: PM me, and I'll get you my PayPal info, and you can provide me with a shipping address... easiest that way for both of us. Does $150.00, including freight and insurance sound fair?
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 06, 2005 at 5:35 PM / IP Logged  
Here's the pdf for figuring the values for the resistors... Seems the numbers are the same for both the PFM and the XO mods... Also, any of the standard values that are listed on the PDF are $10.00 plus S&H, as per the guys at AudioControl... To order any of the standard values, call them at 425-775-8461. Anything OTHER than a standard value, obviously you will need to build...
BTW, the PFM is and 18dB module, and the XO mod is a 24dB module...
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
sedate 
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Posted: June 07, 2005 at 12:48 AM / IP Logged  

$150 shipped?  We sir, have a deal.

haemphyst wrote:
Here's the pdf for figuring the values for the resistors... Seems the numbers are the same for both the PFM and the XO mods... Also, any of the standard values that are listed on the PDF are $10.00 plus S&H, as per the guys at AudioControl... To order any of the standard values, call them at 425-775-8461. Anything OTHER than a standard value, obviously you will need to build...
BTW, the PFM is and 18dB module, and the XO mod is a 24dB module...

Could I build the XO modules myself or would ordering them from AudioControl be the easiest way to do this? My concern is that ordering something like that from a company would take 2 or 3 months...?

Okay well.. help me out a bit..  I'm thinking if I did that, for what we've discussed, the XO at 5000hz and the PFM at 120hz?  Ultimately, I'd like a set of these for my midbass.

http://www.thezeb.com/p-CDT-Audio-HD-5-5-1-4-inch-Midbass-Speakers-101068.htm

I was also looking at these, especially cuz of the 2-ohm rating.. but the XO point seems rather low for a midbass?

http://www.cardomain.com/item/IDSCX52

What do u think?  What would you be looking at?  I was going to try my old VR series midbasses.. they were *excellent* but I *did* kill one of them .. the CDT Classic series midbasses in my car now are...  well.   They need to go.

You mean 18dB module and 24dB module like... the "slope/octave"

"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
haemphyst 
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Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: June 07, 2005 at 1:58 AM / IP Logged  
sedate wrote:
$150 shipped? We sir, have a deal.
haemphyst wrote:
Here's the pdf for figuring the values for the resistors... Seems the numbers are the same for both the PFM and the XO mods... Also, any of the standard values that are listed on the PDF are $10.00 plus S&H, as per the guys at AudioControl... To order any of the standard values, call them at 425-775-8461. Anything OTHER than a standard value, obviously you will need to build...
BTW, the PFM is and 18dB module, and the XO mod is a 24dB module...
Check yer PM...
sedate wrote:

Could I build the XO modules myself or would ordering them from AudioControl be the easiest way to do this? My concern is that ordering something like that from a company would take 2 or 3 months...?

If you want to go with standard crossover values, they have them in stock, for quick shipping turn-around. Seeing now which values are actually available, you can probably get by with the off-the-shelf parts... pretty good selection, actually. I was impressed. Also, I expect that a company like AudioControl is pretty fast. The guy I spoke with today said they are in stock, so I would think the shipping would be pretty fast. If I had to guess, next day shipping, with 4 to 5 days to you...
sedate wrote:
Okay well.. help me out a bit.. I'm thinking if I did that, for what we've discussed, the XO at 5000hz and the PFM at 120hz? Ultimately, I'd like a set of these for my midbass.
http://www.thezeb.com/p-CDT-Audio-HD-5-5-1-4-inch-Midbass-Speakers-101068.htm
I was also looking at these, especially cuz of the 2-ohm rating.. but the XO point seems rather low for a midbass?
http://www.cardomain.com/item/IDSCX52
What do u think? What would you be looking at? I was going to try my old VR series midbasses.. they were *excellent* but I *did* kill one of them .. the CDT Classic series midbasses in my car now are... well.   They need to go.
Both of those numbers are a bit high... While a 5.25 will go that high, it's gonna BEAM like a sonofabitch! I'm thinking around 90 or 100Hz, and somewhere in the 3K to 4K range for the tweeters. Before you take that as gospel, check the capabilities of the tweeters. A XO point like that MIGHT compromise the power handling capabilities of them...
Personally, I like the CDT's better. Better sensitivity, better power handling, and 4 ohms - pretty much the perfect driver for you... Using these will allow you to safely bridge the amp to 4 channels... 2x45 and 2x150 is pretty much a PERFECT power setting for a 2 way system in the door... As I said earlier, this WILL be overpowering a bit, but if you set your gains correctly, nothing will go wrong. I've been overpowering for YEARS, and it can be done, by ear, if you are careful!
sedate wrote:
You mean 18dB module and 24dB module like... the "slope/octave"
Exactly...
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Steven Kephart 
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Posted: June 07, 2005 at 2:37 AM / IP Logged  

Just out of curiosity, why are you planning on going with a 3 way using mid basses?  This seems to complicate things even more, and drives up cost.  There are some good 6's out there that will give you all the mid bass you need, and have good response up to about 3kHz.  And there are some good tweeters that will play down that low as well. 

This is my own personal opinion based on what I've learned; but I suggest in your search being leery of metal coned mids.  The reason for this is that metal cone's produce peaks in the response that are excited by motor linearities and therefore cannot be filtered out.  Granted poly cones do have dips in the response due to cone break-up, but dips are much less audible than peaks.  I don't know if you have read it yet or not, but my boss provided some good information that is relevant here in this link: http://forum.soundillusions.net/articles.php?action=viewarticle&artid=3

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

sedate 
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Posted: June 07, 2005 at 1:39 PM / IP Logged  
Steven Kephart:
I don't know if we're on the same page.. when I say "midbass" i mean 5.25 componet speaker.. if you are distinguishing between "midbass" and "midrange" .. I'm not.. I thought they were, in this particular application anyway, the same thing.
I'm not sure what you mean "going with a 3-way using midbasses." I can't use a 6.5" speaker b/c the 5.25's are already crammed in 4" holes! I don't mod the car itself... its one of my "Install Rules" (i.e., must have spare tire accessible, no cutting metal, etc.)
I already know to avoid metal coned tweeters... what materials would you recommend? I can't grab that article you posted "The Administrator(s) have not granted you sufficient permissions to view the Article Section."
What about the two speakers I posted above? You have any thoughts on those?
Hamfist:
BEAM like a sonofabitch? What do you mean by that?
I do know that technically the 2x45, 2x150 configuration will sound the best, but I really don't care for vehicles w/o rear-fill. It is *very* important to me. Sound is just so much more.. enveloping when rears are used.
I will be running each speaker discretely, at least to start.. 6x45 all around... which is why the 2-ohm mid from ID appealed to me... I do remember the jump from 45 watts to 150 watts when I still had my VR series componets in.. the difference was *massive* ... as remarkable as going from a single 12w0 to two Infinity Kappa Perfect 12's.
"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
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